So very insightful. Such good writing. Thanks, Bri.

This is great… and exactly what this 1st time mom overwhelmed with correct righteous training ahead needed to read. Thanks.

The Law will not save them, but it will open their eyes to see their need for salvation. I have to confront them with their sin so that they can then understand and appreciate the mercy that Jesus is so willing to shower them with.

I have a few questions:

1. Is this the way you parent prior to the child’s salvation, or also after? (At what point do you feel the Law has accomplished it’s work)?

2. Do you feel that this same principle would/does work well for an adult (for example, should we give eachother an unkeepable standard, as brothers and sisters in Christ)?

Molly - thanks for the great questions. Here are some thoughts:

Parenting changes in measure after a child has received the Lord, primarily in terms of our ability to both be cherishers of the Word and His instruction (we now have a reference point that is more clearly understood and respected thanks to that child’s experience of grace), but my 9 year old, who is showing a greater and greater understanding of the Lord, still has a long way to go, and still needs my careful training (which includes teaching, practice, and discipline). There is still foolishness in his heart. It is my duty to him, since I desire to see him grow and change, and since he is my charge before the Lord, to continue training.

This training is not for the sake of gaining right standing before the Lord, nor is it exclusively for the sake of guiding him to an understanding of his need for grace through a knowledge of the law. It also includes a basic training of behavior. If I can help him establish good patterns and habits now, he will be blessed in healthy relationships today, as well as in the future, as will those around him. I want him to receive such blessing!

When my children are older (pre-teen or young teen) I picture myself more and more in a yoke alongside of them. When they are struggling with a particular character issue (ex.: negative speech, disrespect, etc.) we discuss it, look at scriptures to establish truth regarding it, and pray. I let them know I will continue to pray for them, I will remind them when I see them fail in this, and if it continues, I will discipline them so that they might change. They recognize that I am not disciplining for the sake of punishing only but for the purpose of encouraging their personal growth. The plain fact is, that when we experience pain we tend to alter behavior. How much better to alter behavior through the pain received from the loving discipline of a parent now than through the pain of broken relationships or hurt resulting from foolish behavior that was never checked and dealt with as a child at home. Those are harsh lessons, indeed. How much simpler to have dealt with it through loving discipline from a parent. I know that as an adult, chastening from the Lord is good and needed, and I am grateful for it, but how much simpler it would have been had I learned these lessons at home as a child.

That is what I hope for my own children – to learn as much early on as possible, resulting in greater and more accelerated growth. My own children are light years ahead of where I was at their ages. That excites me and I know it is a blessing for them as well as the body of Christ! They understand the grace found in Jesus love and death on the cross, and they understand that discipline is rooted in love from Him.

As for our involvement with each other as adults — for the most part we are not called to discipline other adults (church leadership is the primary exception to that). Discipline is to be administered by parents for their children, or by leadership toward community offenders, but not by individuals. At the same time, we are to encourage one another to “love and good works” — that paradox that we often find — “love and good works” are attainable only through the Spirit’s work within us; they are unattainable on our own. So as we encourage one another to reach for the goal of loving service to Him, we are actually encouraging one another to seek the Spirit’s work in our lives. Praise be to God for His faithful presence in our hearts, minds, and lives!

This has turned into a rather lengthy comment. I hope it is not too much.

They recognize that I am not disciplining for the sake of punishing only but for the purpose of encouraging their personal growth. The plain fact is, that when we experience pain we tend to alter behavior.

I agree that pain is often a good motivator. I would say it’s one of the least desirable motivators, and in the Scriptures, it seems that God waits and waits and waits and tries many things before He uses pain. Pain seems to be a last resort.

In this same way, I found that as a Christian parent, many of the parenting books focused almost entirely upon motivating and changing behaviour through negative stimuli (ie, spanking). What happened in parables like the progigal son (which was an example of how God parents) is completely ignored. The prodigal son parable is given to us to show us our awesome Father, and yet if we measured his parenting skills by our parenting books, he’d get a big hairy F for fathering.

I think we do a disservice to parents when we fail to give them the whole picture of the way God disciplines us. I think we can do an effective job teaching and guiding our children through love and good works: there’s no magic button that makes a child respond best to pain but adults respond best to goodness. I think humans-at-large, not just adults, respond best to goodness. Pain is reserved for a solution when all else fails.

I guess what I’m challenging is the Biblical basis for purposely setting up an unkeepable Law. God has already done that within our own hearts, Romans says. The Gentiles came to Christ without having lived under the pale of the Law’s condemnation and death and it’s never-ending focus on sin. They were able to see their need for Christ because of the law written on the hearts of man.

@Molly:

Since the law is a tutor to grace, it is needed when there is no conviction and repentance of sin. My oldest son is only five years old so we are still very much in the “foundation” years– laying the groundwork of the law and commands of God– but I already have seen in him what I don’t yet see in my two-year-old: the dawning on his own of breaking the law– summed up by Jesus in Matthew– and corresponding repentance. Prayerfully, this awareness in his own spirit of the commands of God is growing and growing so that my role of holding up the law for him becomes less and less. The goal is not to beat him over the head with an unkeepable standard so that he tries harder in and of himself, but to acquaint him with the commands of God so that when he sins, the law of the Lord is hidden in his heart, humbling him and leading him to his need for a Savior and heart-cleansing.

As believers, when we look at the law, when we study His commands, we are rightly humbled by our own need for Jesus’ sacrifice and our response is gratitude and thankful acceptance of His atonement. We need truth– we need the reality that we have fallen short and that we continue to fall short despite our best attempts and effort– so that we are thrust to Jesus. A humble woman or man, boy or girl, draws near to the throne of grace because the law of God has brought revelation of a desperate need for a Savior. The goal is not an unkeepable standard that we try harder and harder to keep on our own; the unkeepable standard is a mirror– it is by no means salvation or even the goal– that shows us ourselves.

Once we have seen ourselves– as revealed by the law– and come before the throne of grace, the amazing thing is that He forgives us and enables us to change in ways that we never could by our own strength! This is what I strive to teach my children, first by holding the mirror up to their lives so that they can be convicted and repent, and then in sharing with them the great and mighty grace of God.

Molly,
We may simply have to agree to disagree at some point, but I will share another thought on the subject. First, a quick review of some scriptures, accepting them as they read, trusting the translators God provided, rather than amateurs doing their limited best.

Prov.23:13
Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you punish him with the rod, he will not die.
Prov.3:11,12
My son, do not despise the Lord’s discipline and do not resent his rebuke,
because the Lord disciplines those he loves, as a father the son he delights in.

You suggested that pain is “…one of the least desirable motivators.” If it is God’s suggestion, I don’t consider it undesirable. And certainly it is not our first response — we teach thoroughly and plan training strategies to provide the best possible chance for their success. (please refer to my previous entries)

You also said, “I think we do a disservice to parents when we fail to give them the whole picture of the way God disciplines us.” The books I cited and the article I linked to go to great lengths to instruct parents in a complete picture, helping parents to train properly, show love fully, and incorporate discipline done in love and care as part of child training. When we focus solely on spanking, we either misuse it or blow it out of proportion and fail to use it altogether. Both are out of order. Then we have truly done a disservice to parents.

“I guess what I’m challenging is the Biblical basis for purposely setting up an unkeepable Law.” I think you went on to answer that yourself when you pointed out that God has written the law on our hearts. He is the one who set up an unkeepable law, not His children who are seeking to uphold the goodness of the law. We do not live by the law for the purpose of gaining right standing, but because it is good. He created it for a standard of right living, not us. We are stewards of His children and He expects us to guide them into a love, reverence, desire for right living. His Holy Spirit is the ultimate teacher and convictor, but He desires to use us.

I believe that living according to the law reaps benefits — there are principles to live by; not because we earn His love, but because we recognize His plans and purposes and acknowledge the greatness of them, then choose to live accordingly. Will we lose or gain salvation? No. But we will benefit from walking in Holy ways rather than carnal ways.

@ Brietta- “The goal is not to beat him over the head with an unkeepable standard so that he tries harder in and of himself, but to acquaint him with the commands of God so that when he sins, the law of the Lord is hidden in his heart, humbling him and leading him to his need for a Savior and heart-cleansing.”

Along these lines…
For the past few months I have been sure to ask my young children prior to spankings(privately, of course)how they have sinned and fallen short. If they do not know, or answer incorrectly, I point them to God’s law, His commands, the Word.
By quoting directly what God says in His Word, my children see their sin for what it is,recognize their need (once again) for a Savior, and come to a place of awe for what Jesus has done for us.

This process has not only been transforming my children and providing a depth of insight into the Gospel, but challenging me as a parent to “be ready in season” with the Word of God as well as relying on the Holy Spirit’s guidance when training and disciplining.

A couple weeks ago, when escorted to a private room for discipline, my 2-year old confessed,

“Mommy, I sinned” (with tears and sobs)
Me: “Can you explain to me how you sinned?”
“I…I…I was being selfish and greedy for toys and I took it”
Me: “That’s right … and what does God say about being selfish and taking from others.”
“To do to others and to love.”
(I then elaborated on these principles that my child showed evidence of understanding)

Wow! I wanted to throw a party! I was sooo excited to realize that my young one is being touched (and changed)by God’s Word! My prayers are being answered! Hallelujah, He is faithful!
I am soooo thankful for the work of the Holy Spirit in revealing to my child our desperate need for Him!

And thank you, Brietta, for your honest presentation of some of the really tough parts of parenting.
Sarah D.

While we kept a wooden spoon in all our bathrooms and the car, (tho boy, a paint stirrer is genius!), I just want to comment on the occasional times that the spoon stayed in the cupboard. I think there was much learned from those times of complete forgiveness without punishment. The word was grace. When we can experience and learn grace and compassion, there is a gratitude that can be a huge motivator for practicing obedience. Don’t we know it all ourselves?

We have wooden spoons in the house but for our trip to Williamsburg we had a paint stirrer for the car and it was wonderful. We still carried the spoon in my diaper bag and both worked well.

I’ve never heard this idea of not giving children a keepable standard. What does this mean? Our children naturally cannot keep standards that we set that are in accordance with God’s word. Our children are expected not to lie, not to hit each other, not to call each other names, etc. to name just a few. Of course, our children have done all these things, that’s why Jesus had to come. Right?

So what does that mean that you can’t give children a keepable standard?

Thanks,

@Kate: You really answered your own question, and I’m guessing you realize this.

A keepable standard is, for example, “Share when others share with you.” But Jesus– the law of God (Matthew 22:36-40)– asks us for so much more! He tells us to turn the other cheek, to go the extra mile, to do good to those who spitefully use you, to bless your enemies. It’s easy to be kind to those who are kind to us. It might even be do-able to be kind to those who hurt us when we are having a good day! But what about when we’re tired, when we’ve been wrung out, when circumstances are difficult and life seems to be caving in? That’s when we come face to face with our own spiritual poverty (inability) and are given the opportunity to humbly and boldly, through Jesus, come before the throne of grace so that He can help us.

I don’t want to give my children a keepable standard– what comes naturally to them– because that isn’t what God gives them. And because I want them to realize their need for Jesus at a very young age. So even though my son was tired and I wanted to excuse him of the requirement of obedience, my husband was reminding me that it is in our moments of need that we better see how much we need forgiveness, cleansing, and grace.

@Kate,
Great question regarding a phrase that may be new to you! I never had heard it before Brietta quoted it either (I think it may be from Ted Tripp’s book, Shepherding a Child’s Heart, which I have not read myself. Is that right, Bri?)

“Our children naturally cannot keep standards that we set that are in accordance with God’s word.” This observation made by you is an accurate one. And we all agree that as Christians we revere God’s word and seek to live according to its commands. No one is able to do that successfully apart from the Holy Spirit’s working. So by simply establishing rules of behavior that reflect God’s heart, we are giving them an unkeepable standard — in other words, we are not lowering the requirements, but maintaining Biblical standards. The child comes to call upon the Lord and find His grace and help in time of need.

This is a valuable thing to understand. Even simpler is the knowledge that God has asked them to obey, He has asked us to train them to do so, and they can learn such obedience (Train up a child in the way he should go and when he is old he will not depart from it. Prov. 22.6)– in measure through our faithful training and in greater measure through the Holy Spirit’s work in their lives. He is so faithful!

Kate, I hope these answers help to clarify this concept! Perhaps a reading of the book would be most helpful.

I just wanted to say a quick thank-you for hosting a discussion on the issue of discipline on this site. I know it sounds odd for an unmarried student to be so interested in the discussion, but I am! :-) I’ve spent hours reading the discussions here and over on Molly’s blog, and after bouncing my thoughts off of the wise Prof. Brown, I discovered why my attention was captured.
I’ve realized that the discussion on the very practical issue of child-training has raised important questions in my mind about the function of the law, the use of the OT in the NT, sanctification, original sin, and different methods of interpreting scripture. So, thanks! I realize my opinions are always more credible and consistent when I have had a chance to ponder multiple views, so bravo to you ladies (and also to Molly as a courageous questioner) for encouraging me to search the Scriptures afresh!

Even though my parents didn’t read Tripp’s book, other similar materials were a huge influence on their child-training methods. I know their efforts were entirely well-intentioned, but I don’t understand how parents think that instilling in young children the vision of an easily-displeased, exacting God will help the children turn to Him as the source of all comfort. Why are young, dependent children held to an exacting standard of conduct (the law), but the adults get to benefit from God’s mercy and grace? How can parents maintain their credibility while instituting a double standard?

Maybe your family has resolved these issues, but what do you say to the families who use the same terminology you do to justify abuse?

Thank you for your consideration.

Naomi,
“I don’t understand how parents think that instilling in young children the vision of an easily-displeased, exacting God will help the children turn to Him as the source of all comfort.”
We must faithfully represent the Lord to our children. In our training, He is always looked to as gracious, forgiving, and merciful. The children understand that the discipline is done to help them walk in His Holy ways which are good and beautiful. Training helps them discern good from evil and enables them to learn to walk in those ways.

They all heartily agree that they are wonderful ways.
They understand, too, that God disciplines Mom and Dad. In His love He helps us learn His ways because we desire that, as does He.

Discipline is not a bad thing; it is good and necessary thing. I understand that our culture has deemed it unkind and abusive. Unbridled behavior is actually the unkind and abusive thing. I am grateful for discipline, for He truly loves those He disciplines.

Boy, I am really appreciating this ongoing chance to take a thorough look at such a volatile issue. I would like to just add a bit more on my above point. Too often our society opts out of taking the time and energy required to follow through with discipline and praise as our children grapple with growing up. Indeed, ‘unbridled behavior’ is unkind and abusive, as well as confusing to a developing child. God has given us a position of authority in our children’s lives which we are accountable to Him to never abdicate. And our ultimate goal is to turn their eyes, hearts, and minds to Him for their authority. God is consistent and holy. Disobedience is unacceptable. We always spank for deliberate disobedience, lying and anger at discipline. But there are,(and I feel should be), occasional areas where we forgive, discuss, pray and move on without a spanking. As Paul says, ‘why is it the things I want to do I don’t do, and the things I don’t want to do, I do??’ I find myself in that situation more than I’d like to think.
Like Paul, I am forgiven, often without obvious, painful consequences. And my gratitude for that “grace” motivates me to try harder, to come to the cross and beg for mercy and the strength to try again and again. I have found those times to be also great learning times for kids. They know they deserve the spanking. They disobeyed. But they totally slipped up, they intended and desired to do better. When we saw humble and penitent “I’m sorry”, and prayed through it, and set aside the rod for that time, I think they learned an even greater lesson. They learned grace and compassion and mercy. That is all undeserved and held out for us daily by Christ’s love and sacrifice. That grace and compassion is something they must experience in life to be able to pass on to others. Dave and Jean Coles have written a great pamphlet we hand out to anybody interested at Koinonia, and it’s called “Raising Godly Children”. It is full of great wisdom on the issue. While I (and they) certainly agree with the rod being part of child raising, I think it is equally important to include the maybe-only-rarely times of no-rod. Sometimes that can even be a heavier punishment! I am interested in reading Tripp’s book, and again, thanks so much for presenting this issue and all your wonderful wisdom on the subject!!

@Diane: Great comment. I think one of the key things you wrote was,

When we saw humble and penitent “I’m sorry”, and prayed through it, and set aside the rod for that time, I think they learned an even greater lesson.

The Bible makes it clear that the law is meant to bring conviction. Where there is already conviction, the law’s role has already been filled. When we realize the err of our ways, we don’t need to be told again that we messed up, we need forgiveness and heart-cleansing. Sometimes consequences still come (i.e. if I steal something, even if I’m later sorry, I still am required to pay it back), but the law– the commands of God– have already done their job, in a sense.

[I should mention here how critical I think it is for parents to be led by the Spirit when determining whether consequences are necessary or not.]

I remember so many times when I sinned as a child and I knew that I was wrong and that I deserved consequences, but instead I would be granted mercy. What a beautiful moment! However, that moment wouldn’t have come if my parents hadn’t been teaching and instructing me previously on what the Bible says. If I hadn’t know that the standard is– loving the Lord with all my heart, soul, mind, and strength, and loving my neighbor as myself– I wouldn’t have known to be convicted. I’m so thankful for the way my parents spoke the Word of God into my life so that my heart was soft enough to comprehend conviction and to respond with repentance!

While I am definitely still a novice at understanding biblical discipline, I just wanted to point out the obvious. Maybe it is so simple that nobody thought it necessary to mention (or maybe I missed someone’s mention of it?), but the Law is good.
How much easier would life be if we were capable of complete obedience? Obviously, we aren’t, so we embrace the forgiveness offered through Christ…but we benefit in our day to day lives from obedience to the Law. Lying, stealing, selfishness, etc. all have very painful consequences in “the real world”. While the Law does make us very much aware of our own failings, which then serves to drive us to the cross, I also think it protects us. If a child has the Law written upon his/her heart and learns to seek to be obedient to the Law through a moment of pain, then the much more serious consequences of disobedience as an adult can be avoided.
In short, I think the God gave us the Law, partly, because He wanted to save us from sin’s consequences in our lives here on earth…as a loving Father, He would rather see us “suffer” the rod than experience more pain as a result of sin.

Lori,
Amen!

I’m a discouraged momma. I’m sorry, but I just don’t understand how to do this thing properly (discipline, training, showing a child the goodness in a spanking). I just want to cry because I don’t “get it” and yet day after day I’m faced with it on a frequent basis. I feel like time is running out and I’m still scrambling trying to figure it out! Help! I don’t want to mess up my precious children!

Angela,

Take heart! He, the Lord of Hosts, the Alpha and Omega, is on your side!! Or, more correctly, through Jesus He has allowed you to be on His side! We are the winners. We have abundant provision. All we need is in Him. He Himself will teach us!

As a young Christian, a new wife, a beginner mother, I took heart again and again in the knowledge that He would teach me His ways! Read Psalm 25, study Psalm 25, read it again, memorize it. Let it become your shield, your banner! The truths contained in this passage enable us to run the race with confidence!

You need confidence: not in yourself, not in another’s ability to teach you, not in your husband or children, but in Him and His Word. This scripture will impart confidence and faith!

Eat the word, chew on it. Let it nourish your soul and bring you new life, releasing faith. If you do these things you will be strengthened. If you have questions or continued doubts, e-mail me directly. This may be a matter of deeper needs.

He is our help in trouble. Apart from Him we can do nothing. He has sent His Holy Spirit so that we will never be alone. The very demons of hell are subject to His name. “Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge Him, and He will direct your paths.”

Please know that you and your children are His. He will never leave you or forsake you! All things work together for good for those who love Him; He can even take any sin others have committed against you, any mistakes you have made yourself, and cause them to be for your good (and for your children’s good when they look to Him!) We cannot lose when we love Him! It is impossible! No matter what the enemy throws our way, no matter how our lives are touched by the sin of others, God can work it for good in our lives. And He can cleanse us from all sin through His blood.

So shall we freely sin, knowing His great grace will cover and redeem? What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? “Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?” - Romans 6.1,2

But know this, that when we do sin, we have an advocate! You are covered, at all times and in all places! Be free from worry and discouragement. Embrace His Holy Spirit as teacher, and learn from Him. He will teach you His Holy Ways! It is a promise to you!

“Lord, I ask you to bless Angela and others who may feel an overwhelming sense of failure or inability. Surely this task is out of reach apart from You. Show them Your great faithfulness, release fresh faith into their lives, and teach them Your precious, Holy ways.

Bless their beautiful children, full of promise in You, destined for great exploits in Your kingdom. Help them lead them into deeper understanding of Your grace and love, that they may serve You in truth with joy and strength. May they be blessed in this great adventure of mothering precious young lives. May they be truly blessed!

Amen.”

Being an older single mom who made many, many errors in the discipline realm, I am convicted anew to the purposes of God’s precious Word in parenting.
My son is now an adult and I am painfully aware on a daily basis of where I fell short in imparting the necessity for discipline.
Discipline in childhood breeds self-discipline in adulthood. It creates a love for those God-created things called order and Godliness. It teaches that the LOVE of God is reigning supreme in the life of the parent.
I have begun to realize, and this is NOT self-condemnation, that the errors I made in parenting(and mind you, they were worldly-wise, moral, yet unBiblical) are being suffered in the life of my son. He pays the ultimate price.
God, however, makes no mistakes. He knows that we all have “folly bound up in our hearts.” He has mercifully and graciously delivered the manual for right living into our hands (and living in the United States, we are free to partake of it!).
I think in reading this dialogue, I am more convinced than ever that we are doing a GREAT disservice to our children if we do not teach them to reach for much more than a keepable standard.
Excellent posts.

Michele